New Amor System - Play Test Comments

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President
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New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by President » 2012-10-10

Hey folks. We had our first play test of the armor proposal and want to give folks a chance to comment. The Senate has put the vote on this issue on hold until after play testing...

We will continue the play test at the campout.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-10

Actually Senate did vote on it and it passed. They put their faith in the EB to shoot it down if it turns out to suck.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Cailen Sendor » 2012-10-10

awesome go Senate!
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Snudge » 2012-10-10

It worked fine for land searches, no one seemed to have any issue
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Zentor » 2012-10-10

My bad. I'm the one that told him it was tabled. I wasn't paying much attention to what was being said I guess.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-13

Land searches are really not a good way to play test the new armor system. They are a completely separate dynamic of the game. It doesn't really translate well into how battle days and combat during adventures between PC vs PC take place as opposed to land searches and combat between PC vs NPC take place.

Similarly the last battle day wasn't a very good test either. There were very few people fighting and amongst those that were very few were wearing plate. The only good test was at the start of the event Chosen Blood came out in force. There were several fights were I was backpedaling alternating hit zones on from leg to shoulder to shoulder or some combination there of and it meant absolutely nothing. In one instance I counted getting 13 hits between those three locations to no affect. Meanwhile I died after taking only one hit from a flail... Why are we rewarding players who powergame? That is ridiculous on several levels. FIrst how can I hit someone 13 times and they not even have taken a light wound? Second why should I have to even keep track of that many hits? We should be balancing the armor system not making those who wear plate invulnerable.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Inox » 2012-10-13

Gwydion wrote:Land searches are really not a good way to play test the new armor system. They are a completely separate dynamic of the game. It doesn't really translate well into how battle days and combat during adventures between PC vs PC take place as opposed to land searches and combat between PC vs NPC take place.

Similarly the last battle day wasn't a very good test either. There were very few people fighting and amongst those that were very few were wearing plate. The only good test was at the start of the event Chosen Blood came out in force. There were several fights were I was backpedaling alternating hit zones on from leg to shoulder to shoulder or some combination there of and it meant absolutely nothing. In one instance I counted getting 13 hits between those three locations to no affect. Meanwhile I died after taking only one hit from a flail... Why are we rewarding players who powergame? That is ridiculous on several levels. FIrst how can I hit someone 13 times and they not even have taken a light wound? Second why should I have to even keep track of that many hits? We should be balancing the armor system not making those who wear plate invulnerable.



You die today from a flail to the head. Under the new system, even light leather stops a flail hit. Flail power goes down.

Also, while plate takes one more hit from white or yellow (only), it is easier to take someone down in plate with black, for instance. Three chops to a limb is now a Mortal and not a Light. This has a side benefit of being more realistic, too.

However, right now under the current rules, I can I can hit someone in plate 15 times without them taking a Light wound. Does this happen? Very rarely. Usually, you end up with 4 to torso or 5 to a limb, and it's all over. In fact, usually damage ends up mixed and matched; something confusing as hell under our current system, but easy as pie under the new rules.

Bottom line: the new system is infinitely easier. One half sheet explains it all, and any new person can get it down their first day. ...as opposed to 6 charts and a seventh chart to explain the other 6.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Gor Strayhorn » 2012-10-13

I agree with Sir Gwydion, plate wearers need to be more aware of the hits that land and count correctly. But I think that would a personal problem not a play-testing problem. 3 red/black hits to the torso in plate is Death, people need to remember that. As far as play-testing, I had no problems with it on the field.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-13

Inox,

Trust me I love the fact that the new armor system reduces the effectiveness of flails. If I had my way flails wouldn't be head legal. But I understand that will never happen and I will also never consider even bringing it up as a serious proposal. My mentioning of dying to flail really had nothing to do with your proposal for the new armor system and more simply my frustration at dying to one.

As for your simplification of blacks and reds I whole heartedly agree with that as well. The idea of a "half hit" really never made any sense to me no matter who explained it or how vehemently they defended it.

The only real problem that I have with the new system is just the sheer amount of hits that plate and its equivalent can now take. I understand that the point of the new system is simplification and to an extent realism. I think that your proposal goes a long way towards it. However I think we can do better without making plate more powerful.

I know it was already mentioned and proposed by someone I'm not sure who. But I think a three tiered armor system would simplify the system which it severely needs as well as clearly define both the classes of armor and also help to define character classes. It simplifies the system in the manner already proposed by making it more uniform and logical in the way that armor takes hits but also changes game balance. A three tiered armor system takes that and goes further. Keep in mind at this point I'm simply repeating a proposal that has already been outlined however I'm taking the time to reiterate it in order to outline my points.

With a three tiered system we have light, medium, and heavy classes of armor. Which translates roughly to light=leather + barkskin, medium= studded + ring + hide, and medium = plate + banded + chain. Whereas light has one point of armor, medium has two points of armor, and heavy has three points of armor.

By only having three tiers we simplify even further three instead of four armor classes as well as reducing the power of the heavy class and adding further simplification that characters using plate have less to keep track of. It also bumps up chain which in my opinion is severely lacking considering the weight to protection ration that it currently supplies.

So my bottom line is I really agree that armor needs to be simplified and I agree that your system does that. However I think that you can make it simpler (only three tiers and less hits to keep track of in the instance of plate as well as avoiding making plate a 4 hit juggernaut).


Gor,

Thank you for calling me Sir. However I think that you have me confused with someone else. I am Gwydion a Ranger and Fighter of Albion now known as the Northern Kingdoms. I have been playing since 2005. For some reason my profile that I used earlier does not seem to exist now so I made this one. I have been off and on the field of battle because of military commitments and do not often post on the forums. However I do keep up with proposals as well as other game news online and after fighting with the new system I wanted to voice my opinion against it.

Furthermore I think your comment is relevant considering plate wearers needing to be more aware of their hits and especially hit placement! I cannot stand characters in plate who ignore those very critical and very precisely aimed strikes to their armor gap points. This is something that both Kai, Thrush, and I have talked about in depth before. However that has nothing to do with this armor proposal. But the relevance of your comment that I mentioned earlier does. You said that they need to be aware which truthfully can be very hard especially in multiple engagements in a single battle. Why made that harder by allowing them to take more hits?

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-14

the 3 point system is my baby.
I think the 4 point needs to go in first though, get folk used to the point system.
this also gives us time to work out the "mage skins" etc.

as I said to eleventy billion people, I would love to see our "sweatband armor" become "augmented armor"or something of the like.

I think over the course of next year, we can spitball the right balance of hits for the "skin" classes.

My ideal armor is
Hide/shark= 1 point
chain/butted= 2 point
plate/banded= 3 point

bark skin = 5oz leather (augmented to 1 hit)
monk skin= 5oz leather/ appropriate garb (augmented to 1 hit) , second monk skin absorbs 1 hit, then leather armor based off of augmented 5 oz
first wizard skin= robes(or even leather armor) (augmented to 1hit armor), second one (steel skin) will absorb 1 hit, then there is robes beneath it ( 1 hit) armor .

This makes everyone wear some kind of appropriate garb, allows monks/wizards to have an armor/ clothing style that is represented by something more than a silly sweatband, combats go faster...

I would like to see 1h stabs go to 1 pt damage under this new system, still bypassing AR1, of course, but yea... that's it in a nutshell.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by fingers630 » 2012-10-15

wizards just had robes removed, we dont want them thanks.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-15

Not a requirement, but an option.
Wear robes or 5oz leather, augmented to 1 hit armor.

In truth, I would be ok with giving all classes 1 hit armor, done and done. They can choose to use "monk/druid leather" or "mageskin" by augmentation.

Game looks better, players are more wysiwyg, hits drop.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Gwydion » 2012-10-15

Lord Valfryn,

I disagree about your idea of incrementally introducing a three tiered system after this passes. If this passes the major problems with the current system will have already been fixed. It will not be as big a problem and there will be no reason/determination to fine tune and refine the system further.

Darkon is currently at a critical point when it comes to its combat system specifically armor. I'm not saying that the new system doesn't fix the problems of the old one. However I think it creates another problem by increasing plate to 4 hits. As well as not going far enough to simplify armor to a more logical and even easier three tiered light medium heavy system.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2012-10-24

I agree with a three hit system much more than the 4 tiered system. It takes the good parts of this proposal and removes the negatives and is very simple. 5 hits to light wound in a single location is a bit much, even 4 is a lot.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-25

There is no formal proposal to reduce the armor tiers from 4 to 3.

In play testing the new armor system at the campout; it seemed to work. Hits were easy to calculate and those that I fought seemed happy with how their hits were taken. I was not unhappy with how mine were taken for that matter, either.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-25

Hypothetically, if we went to a 3 tier system, what armor goes where?

Leather-goes away
Studded/Hide/Shark mail become new AC 1
Chain/Scale/Butted new AC 2
Plate/Banded new AC 3

Allow any class that can only wear leather to now use the new AC 1 armors (added benefit of those that have leather currently could just add rings/studs and not lose their investment)

What ya think?
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2012-10-25

:twisted:

Hypothetically, a new proposal for reducing the armor tiers from 4 to 3 should have it's own post rather than distract from play test comments for the new armor system.

And to further hijack the thread; how are you feeling Andrick? You looked pretty rough leaving the campout.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-25

Kai Firebrand wrote:I agree with a three hit system much more than the 4 tiered system. It takes the good parts of this proposal and removes the negatives and is very simple. 5 hits to light wound in a single location is a bit much, even 4 is a lot.

It was okay for 2 decades, but now it isn't it?

How did this game ever work before!?

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-25

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
Kai Firebrand wrote:I agree with a three hit system much more than the 4 tiered system. It takes the good parts of this proposal and removes the negatives and is very simple. 5 hits to light wound in a single location is a bit much, even 4 is a lot.

It was okay for 2 decades, but now it isn't it?

How did this game ever work before!?


Ahh, it's never been that way. Max in old system was 4th hit light, 5th mortal. New system is 5th light and 6th mortal (from white weapons, no mortal from yellow) for limbs. Same holds true for torso and head, they take one more hit from whites/yellows then they did under the old system. Old system is more like a 3 1/2 tiered system as many armors are mixed around.

And I am feeling much better. Don't consider it hijacking the thread when it is directly related to the new hit system and a (possible) problem with it.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2012-10-25

Prince Andrick wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
Kai Firebrand wrote:I agree with a three hit system much more than the 4 tiered system. It takes the good parts of this proposal and removes the negatives and is very simple. 5 hits to light wound in a single location is a bit much, even 4 is a lot.

It was okay for 2 decades, but now it isn't it?

How did this game ever work before!?


Ahh, it's never been that way. Max in old system was 4th hit light, 5th mortal. New system is 5th light and 6th mortal (from white weapons, no mortal from yellow) for limbs. Same holds true for torso and head, they take one more hit from whites/yellows then they did under the old system. Old system is more like a 3 1/2 tiered system as many armors are mixed around.

And I am feeling much better. Don't consider it hijacking the thread when it is directly related to the new hit system and a (possible) problem with it.

I thought it would've been rather obvious that I was referring to the part where he said that 4 was too many. But in the future, I'll be sure to edit the quote down to specifically what I'm replying to. Sorry.

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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Prince Andrick » 2012-10-25

Yup, I missed that distinction. No harm no foul.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Sir Caetrel » 2012-10-25

Prince Andrick wrote:Hypothetically, if we went to a 3 tier system, what armor goes where?

Leather-goes away
Studded/Hide/Shark mail become new AC 1
Chain/Scale/Butted new AC 2
Plate/Banded new AC 3

Allow any class that can only wear leather to now use the new AC 1 armors (added benefit of those that have leather currently could just add rings/studs and not lose their investment)

What ya think?


Yes. I am a big fan of 1-2-3. It's simple for hit taking, and it's simple for distinguishing armor types. We'd basically have light, medium and heavy armor. It would remove the biggest flaw in Inox' system- plate taking an extra hit from white and yellow.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Inox » 2012-10-25

1-2-3 works for me, but the headband armor part is tricky.

Personally, I'd be willing to see all headband armor go to 1 hit, but people would pitch a fit.
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2012-10-25

Thats my dream. Headband 1 hit ARMOR (reds still bypass), though I would force players to wear 5oz leather or appropriate costume to count as 1 hit. Hance, game looks better, hit system stable, win win win.

Upgrade of the sweatband armors could stop the first red that hits them.

I would also make red damage 1pt, but still have it bypass AR1.

Weapons balanced, armor balanced, headbands balanced. Done
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Re: New Amor System - Play Test Comments

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2012-10-25

takes the confusion of headband armors away, normalizes steel/stoneskin as well as monk iron skin, and druid bark skin to all one category and keeps the basic hits we have now. a few notations however.

However you cant just make red damage 1point as that puts chain absorbing 2 hits ( even arrows ) and plate at 3.

Leaving red at 2 points means you don't even have to mention its ignoring of armors

However this puts Blacks at a weird situation being at 2 points, it would kill much more quickly than people are used to. wounding AR 1 on the first hit, and wounding plate on the 2nd hit.
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