Hardcell only spears.
-
- Darkonian
- Posts: 57
- Joined: 2012-01-13
Hardcell only spears.
With the advances in stabbing tip construction and the use of Ensolite to make safer stabbing tips for swords. I was wondering what the thoughts are now in regards to making a hardcell only spear. Same basic construction of a base, but instead of that last layer being open cell, we switch that with a thick layer of ensolite (around 1" worth).
Any thoughts pro and con about moving towards this style on construction?
Any thoughts pro and con about moving towards this style on construction?
- Lord Cailen Sendor
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 571
- Joined: 2012-01-10
- Location: Tarimsdadt conducting interviews for new members of the Royal Court
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
I have made a design for spears that I have used for over 20 years straight using open cell tips
they are not the smallest nor the hardest but they are proven safe
if spear tips moved to hard cell for a spear over 8' I personally would fear I could break a rib if I really tried and I am not the strongest of our members .... by using stance balence and weight distribution you could really and I mean really rock someones world
maby on a spear used one handed but on something with gurth and weight I think it would be a bad idea... cause remember often times long spears end up in peoples faces - neck area when they are used incorectly or blocked incorectly add in the person charging at you when you throw the shot = hospital time...
just my 5 cents
feel free to make one and test it with your friends and if you think it is safe then present it to the nc for testing...
I just fear you will only be wasting your time... to add enough cushion you would have to use a few layers and when you do that the chance the tip turns when striking goes up ... lots of factors to consider
and remember also that a skilled spearman can full strike several times in a very very short time frame - which would also affect safety if the type of foam used has a time that it takes to recover fully from each strike
they are not the smallest nor the hardest but they are proven safe
if spear tips moved to hard cell for a spear over 8' I personally would fear I could break a rib if I really tried and I am not the strongest of our members .... by using stance balence and weight distribution you could really and I mean really rock someones world
maby on a spear used one handed but on something with gurth and weight I think it would be a bad idea... cause remember often times long spears end up in peoples faces - neck area when they are used incorectly or blocked incorectly add in the person charging at you when you throw the shot = hospital time...
just my 5 cents
feel free to make one and test it with your friends and if you think it is safe then present it to the nc for testing...
I just fear you will only be wasting your time... to add enough cushion you would have to use a few layers and when you do that the chance the tip turns when striking goes up ... lots of factors to consider
and remember also that a skilled spearman can full strike several times in a very very short time frame - which would also affect safety if the type of foam used has a time that it takes to recover fully from each strike
++ Respect those above your station and train others under you to surpass your achievements - while you treat others with the respect you expect to receive in return! ++
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
My 7' black glaives have had ensolite stabbing tips for 3 years. It's hard, but safe. No complaints. It's also on a band shoppe pole, so: NOT HEAVY... that's the BIG reason it doesn't warrant complaints with how hard I stab. Also, it breaks down REALLY fast. Like 3 Darkon events, or 2 days at Ragnarok. I will be taking backup tips to Rag this year.
Thrush
berserk
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
-
- Darkonian
- Posts: 57
- Joined: 2012-01-13
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Oh, for reference. http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,18500.0.htmlThe design has been around in Dag for about 3 years now with apparently varying success.
-
- President
- Posts: 277
- Joined: 2012-01-11
Re: Hardcell only spears.
We've made some pretty sweet spears this past year and you can certainly use ensolyte to reduce the amount of soft cell needed on the tip. Ensolyte also creates a great transition of foam density that IMO keeps coring down.
The problem is an ensolyte stabby on a blade kit impacts and compresses much differently than say, a flat disc of ensolyte on a spear. It's super safe on the contour and density of the bladekit tip. So to do this, you would have to innovate a design that is very different from a traditional spear built up like a cylinder.
Picture taking Thrush' glaive, and cutting 80 percent of the blade off, leaving just the stab. That is what you'd have to do IMO. And in that case, the current rules say the spear must be 4" diameter, so it would fail due to spec. Long story short: it is doable but you would have to seriously innovate a new design, and possible get rules changed to do so. Probably much easier to use ensolyte but also use a little soft. Keira's spear is pretty sweet, check it out some time.
The problem is an ensolyte stabby on a blade kit impacts and compresses much differently than say, a flat disc of ensolyte on a spear. It's super safe on the contour and density of the bladekit tip. So to do this, you would have to innovate a design that is very different from a traditional spear built up like a cylinder.
Picture taking Thrush' glaive, and cutting 80 percent of the blade off, leaving just the stab. That is what you'd have to do IMO. And in that case, the current rules say the spear must be 4" diameter, so it would fail due to spec. Long story short: it is doable but you would have to seriously innovate a new design, and possible get rules changed to do so. Probably much easier to use ensolyte but also use a little soft. Keira's spear is pretty sweet, check it out some time.
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
-
- President
- Posts: 277
- Joined: 2012-01-11
Re: Hardcell only spears.
BaiterofBAMC wrote:Oh, for reference. http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php/topic,18500.0.htmlThe design has been around in Dag for about 3 years now with apparently varying success.
That guy's design is great, except I would use MC foam and a bandsoppe pole core. For the tip his 12B method is more or less what I do...1" of ensolyte and a thin layer of open cell over that.
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
-
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 2012-09-26
Re: Hardcell only spears.
That's basically how I make my SCA spears.
I'm not sure that you want me hitting you with one.
I'm not sure that you want me hitting you with one.
Baron Aethilgar Sheldwich
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
Re: Hardcell only spears.
open cell doesn't really do much. it collapses too quickly and doesn't absorb much force and breaks down super fast.
jayjay
No Quarter!
No Quarter!
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
if you wrap it in tape as you are affixing the cloth cover, it's ok for a while.. you know, the way every spear was made back in the day... lol
Thrush
berserk
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
-
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 2012-09-26
Re: Hardcell only spears.
You know... what it comes down to is 'is it safe no matter who uses it'? The only way for weapon and armor tech to advance is to experiment. Build one. I'm edger to see it. In fact, build two... if it's safe, I want one. 

Baron Aethilgar Sheldwich
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Hence the Elidorian heavy ass SCA spears should fail. They are unsafe no matter who uses them.
Thrush
berserk
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
- Lord Cailen Sendor
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 571
- Joined: 2012-01-10
- Location: Tarimsdadt conducting interviews for new members of the Royal Court
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
rofl ... the elidorian spears for the most part use both hard cell AND open cell - the open cell is actually the firm greay open cell that does stand up for years, it does have resistance, and is easy to deal with and support if needed ... saying all open cell is crap shows that you have not seen all open cell that is out there
I buy it at about 85$ a sheet fyi but a sheet lasts me a few years and if you look at alot of the spears on the feild a great percentage I have made and they have stayed in use till thier core breaks - that is the only flaw with them that I have seen lol

I buy it at about 85$ a sheet fyi but a sheet lasts me a few years and if you look at alot of the spears on the feild a great percentage I have made and they have stayed in use till thier core breaks - that is the only flaw with them that I have seen lol
++ Respect those above your station and train others under you to surpass your achievements - while you treat others with the respect you expect to receive in return! ++
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
You missed my point and "rofl'd" at something that isn't funny.
Aethilgar: safe is safe
Thrush: agreed, that's why those battering rams Elidor has shouldn't be allowed as their weight does not allow them to be safe and they have hospitalized people.
Cailen: hahahaaha lolerskates roflcopter
I may be paraphrasing a tad. *smirk* I have made a few open cell spears and daggers and stab tips in my time, and they were all just fine. Remember beer coozies with open cell in em as stab tips? Junk, but safe.
Thrush
berserk
Aethilgar: safe is safe
Thrush: agreed, that's why those battering rams Elidor has shouldn't be allowed as their weight does not allow them to be safe and they have hospitalized people.
Cailen: hahahaaha lolerskates roflcopter
I may be paraphrasing a tad. *smirk* I have made a few open cell spears and daggers and stab tips in my time, and they were all just fine. Remember beer coozies with open cell in em as stab tips? Junk, but safe.
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
- Sir Tyriel Firebrand
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 369
- Joined: 2012-01-26
Re: Hardcell only spears.
These spears are actually pretty awesome. I used a 2.5 one at a Bel event once, you can stab the heck out of people with it too. I was hit with it a few times and it was not bad. It felt uncomfortable, but it didn't suck for a long time. I will also agree with Thrush that some of the spears out there currently are pretty heavy and should not pass. The new ones Wraith made with the square heads are pretty boss though.
~No Quarter!~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~
~Warriors Guild~
~Knight of Tuesday~
~"Winning is teaching, losing is learning"~
Re: Hardcell only spears.
I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?
- Amazing_Iltztafein
- Darkonian
- Posts: 548
- Joined: 2012-01-06
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?
Page 85. Right under "flails are for wusses" and right above "AoE is overpowered".
- Lord Valfryn
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 761
- Joined: 2012-01-10
- Location: The Bloodspire Mountains
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
I wear metal, and metal that's good at dissipating force, at that. That being said, I'm ok with some of the harder stuff. We now have people stabbing the * out of each other with 6ft blackswords using seat-foam and glaives out there with almost 3 inches of the stuff. Meh.
I want zero tears when the stuff becomes commonplace and I skewer your GF/Babymomma/Little brother/ Semi-retarded cousin with one. No tears. Not one single tear.
Beyond that, heck, I'm on board.
I want zero tears when the stuff becomes commonplace and I skewer your GF/Babymomma/Little brother/ Semi-retarded cousin with one. No tears. Not one single tear.
Beyond that, heck, I'm on board.

Re: Hardcell only spears.
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Page 85. Right under "flails are for wusses" and right above "AoE is overpowered".
The proposals that pass Senate these days....
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?
Weapons have, in the past, been failed for being simply too heavy. The rulebook states, p. 17: "The most important consideration when constructing weapons and armor must always be safety. Weapon and Armor Marshals may fail a piece of equipment at any time if it is deemed unsafe, even if it has passed a Marshals inspection previously."
Extremely weighty weapons have an impact that cannot be sufficiently mitigated by foam. They make it easy to dislocate joints and potentially break bones simply due to mass. Therefore, when the weapons marshals encounter a weapon they feel packs too much wallop to be safe for striking other players on the field, they are well within their rights to fail it.
Prince Inox Elsonáge Thensiur
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON
Swordslinger of No Quarter!
Warriors' Guild, OE, CCx8, CM(Warrior Mage)
Beast of BABALON
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Ericson wrote:I am unaware of a maximum weight limit for spears. Or swords. Or shields. Or armor. Or.... any gear on the field of Darkon. Is it in the new rulebook or something?
Nope, but we weapons marshals can fail anything we deem unsafe. And as long as we are not required to wear plate, we must take some safety precautions. Otherwise, why have weapons check at all, right? 8+ foot spears who's core weigh a ridiculous amount, no matter the amount of foam, can break ribs and do the things Inox was mentioning. And they have. This is why we weapons check. Sadly, many weapons marshals wear plate and don't have someone stab them in anger with some of the spears I mentioned. I am a huge fan of uncomfortable but safe in the name of safety. Hence I like the "ensolite" or "marine" foam stab tips, I feel they are safest, on safe cores...
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
-
- President
- Posts: 277
- Joined: 2012-01-11
Re: Hardcell only spears.
I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.
Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.
Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.
Baron Caetrel Von Garren, KR, OSW, OR, OG, CC, CS
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
Lord Protector of The Northern Kingdoms
King of Sarum
High Priest of Torm The True, First Born of The Dragyn
Brother of The White Mantle
Knight of The Realm
- Thrush Svartehjertet
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: 2012-01-06
- Location: Baltimore, MD
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Sir Caetrel wrote:I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.
Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.
Absolutely!!! Or SCA spears they proudly "just barely made safe" enough to play Darkon. "You should see what I can do with this WITHOUT the foam" shouldn't be part of any conversation...
Thrush
berserk
Warriors Guild
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
Order of the Raven (Arts)
Order of the Mask (Fighter) 2012, 2013
Order of the Stag (Service to the Game)
"I'm going to sacrifice more than anyone else to make a play, I can promise you. And I'm going to hit you so you don't want to play [any] more.''
-
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 2012-09-26
Re: Hardcell only spears.
Thrush Svartehjertet wrote:Sir Caetrel wrote:I tend to hate specific material requirement on weapons, but I could stand by mandatory bandshoppe poles for spear cores...or the banning of the 2" wood cores. For all the reasons stated above.
Amazing some people are scared of ensolyte, but don't mind cracked ribs from a 2" hardwood tree with a sofa cushion on the end.
Absolutely!!! Or SCA spears they proudly "just barely made safe" enough to play Darkon. "You should see what I can do with this WITHOUT the foam" shouldn't be part of any conversation...
Thrush
berserk
Too true
Baron Aethilgar Sheldwich
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
Facta non Verba
"Arguing on the forums is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After some time, you realize that you are getting dirty, but the pig is actually enjoying it."
-
- Knight of the Realm
- Posts: 41
- Joined: 2012-04-10
Re: Hardcell only spears.
You can make spears that strike safely (and harmlessly) with wooden cores. I'm not saying all wooden spears are safe. I'm just saying that each spear should be taken individually and judged for how it feels and not what it's made of. Just as all ensolyte stab tips are not safe , wooden spears are not dangerous (in general) . Everything really comes down to general technique.
- AndorOfDargarth
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 2012-01-18
- Contact:
Re: Hardcell only spears.
I could be wrong, but I think that Darkon requires much softer spear tips - and much harder stabs - than Belegarth does (at least at groups in the NW). Darkonians stab for the rafters compared to other groups, which are more into yoga foam / squishy closed cell stab tips. Throwing that out there.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests